admin 发表于 2012-1-20 12:44 static/image/common/back.gif
基督奥体和基督的教会还是有区别的，基督的教会包含基督奥体，反之则不是。 ...
请“从教会官方正式文件中”，给出依据。
"To subsist" is a very precise way of being。
"To subsist" = being（is）
自古以来，即使是东西方教会关系最紧张的时候，天主教会从未否认过东正教的牧职和圣体圣事有效。
这与梵二无关。
当他们有效举行感恩圣祭时，整个圣教会奥秘地临在于那个献祭的小团体中，
使之成为（虽不完满）真正的地方教会。
而新教团体，从来就不是教会。
虽然他们自称是教会。
tommy 发表于 2012-1-20 13:58 static/image/common/back.gif
"To subsist" is a very precise way of being。
"To subsist" = being（is）
"To subsist" is a very precise way of being, that is, to be as a subject which exists in itself. Thus the Council Fathers meant to say that the being of the Church as such is a broader entity than the Roman Catholic Church, but within the latter it acquires
不赞成简单的划等号。
再看维基百科的解释：
Subsistit in (subsists in) is a Latin phrase, which appears in the eighth paragraph of Lumen Gentium, a landmark document of the Second Vatican Council of the Catholic Church:
This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.Haec Ecclesia, in hoc mundo ut societas constituta et ordinata, subsistit in Ecclesia catholica, a successore Petri et Episcopis in eius communione gubernata, licet extra eius compaginem elementa plura sanctificationis et veritatis inveniantur, quae ut dona Ecclesiae Christi propria, ad unitatem catholicam impellunt.This sentence and the correct meaning of "subsists in" affects the definition of the Church with important implications for how the Catholic Church views itself, its relations with other Christian communities and other religions. Questions have been raised, if Lumen Gentium reworded the longstanding phrase, which stated that the Church of Christ is (Latin est) the Catholic Church. Lumen Gentium does recognize that other Christian ecclesial communities have elements of sanctification and of truth.
Church of Christ is the Catholic Church
According to some, to say the Church of Christ "subsists in" the Catholic Church introduces a distinction between the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church. Catholic teaching had traditionally, until then, stated unequivocally that "the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing", as Pope Pius XII expressed it in his 1950 encyclical Humani generis, 27). The teaching of Pope Pius XII on the identity of the Mystical Body and the Catholic Church in Mystici Corporis was solemn, theologically integrated, but not new.
Paul VI quotes Pius XII
A supposed reversal of Mystici Corporis by the Ecumenical Council - which incorporated virtually all teachings of Pius XII in over 250 references without caveats, would have not only been a rejection of a major teaching of the late Pontiff. It would have raised serious questions regarding the reliability and nature of Papal teachings on such essential topics like the Church. And, it would have constituted a major attack on the most recent encyclical teachings of the then reigning Pope Paul VI, who had just issued his inaugural encyclical Ecclesiam Suam, on "The Church". Paul VI quoted Mystici Corporis from Pius XII verbatim:
"Consider, then, this splendid utterance of Our predecessor:"The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, a doctrine revealed originally from the lips of the Redeemer Himself, and making manifest the inestimable boon of our most intimate union with so august a Head, has a surpassing splendor which commends it to the meditation of all who are moved by the divine Spirit, and with the light which it sheds on their minds, is a powerful stimulus to the salutary conduct which it enjoins."Pope Paul VI continues: We wish to take up this invitation and to repeat it in this encyclical, for We consider it timely and urgent and relevant to the needs of the Church in our day.
If such a reversal really occurred, of a highlighted teaching of a reigning Pope "revealed originally from the lips of the Redeemer Himself", it would have surely been noted inside and outside the Church at the time.
Therefore, the Church states that the phrase "subsists in" of Vatican II does not undermine the preceding manner of expressing the identity of the "Church of Christ" and the "Catholic Church", since, as John XXIII said when he opened Vatican II, "The Council … wishes to transmit Catholic doctrine, whole and entire, without alteration or deviation" (speech of 11 October 1962).
Paul VI confirms continuity
Pope Paul VI when promulgating the Constitution, said the same. The Council teaches that Christ "established… here on earth" a single Church "as an entity with visible delineation… constituted and organized in the world as a society", a Church that has "a social structure" that "serves the spirit of Christ" in a way somewhat similar to how "the assumed nature, inseparably united to him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation". It is this concrete visible organized Church, endowed with a social structure, that the Council says "subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."
In another document promulgated on the same day (21 November 1964) as Lumen gentium, the Council did in fact refer to "the Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ" (Decree Orientalium ecclesiarum, 2). Here the traditional conventional expression "is" is used, whose clarity can be used to interpret the potential ambiguity of the other phrase.
It is also to the Catholic Church, not to some supposed distinct "Church of Christ", that has been entrusted "the fullness of grace and of truth" that gives value to the other Churches and communities that the Holy Spirit uses as instruments of salvation, though the Church of Christ is not said to subsist in any of them.
In fact, the Council combined the two terms "Church of Christ" and "Catholic Church" into a single term, "Christ's Catholic Church" in its Decree on Ecumenism, promulgated at the same time as its Constitution on the Church.
Sebastian Tromp as author
Sebastian Tromp, a Dutch Jesuit, a solid Thomist theologian and close to Pope Pius XII, is considered to have been the main though unacknowledged author of Mystici Corporis. As advisor to Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani during Vatican II, Tromp was also, according to existing tape recordings and diaries, the father of "subsistit", which to his understanding of Latin did not mean anything new but indicated completeness.
Elements of sanctification in other Churches and communities
The Council used the traditional term "Church" to refer to the Eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church. "These Churches," it said, "although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy."
However, "the followers of Christ are not permitted to imagine that Christ's Church is nothing more than a collection (divided, but still possessing a certain unity) of Churches and ecclesial communities. Nor are they free to hold that Christ's Church nowhere really exists today and that it is to be considered only as an end which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach."
Sedevacantist reaction
Sedevacantist groups consider Lumen Gentium one of several demarcations of when the post-conciliar Church fell into heresy, pointing to the use of "subsistit in" rather than "est" as an abdication of the Church's historic (and to them compulsory) identification of itself alone as God's church.
In an interview with Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, then-Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) responded to this criticism as follows:
"The concept expressed by 'is' (to be) is far broader than that expressed by 'to subsist'. 'To subsist' is a very precise way of being, that is, to be as a subject, which exists in itself. Thus the Council Fathers meant to say that the being of the Church as such is a broader entity than the Roman Catholic Church, but within the latter it acquires, in an incomparable way, the character of a true and proper subject."
Vatican interpretation
On June 29, 2007 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under the presidency of William Cardinal Levada signed an official document called "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church". It was published July 10, 2007.
Benedict XVI, at an audience granted to the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, ratified and confirmed these responses, adopted in the Plenary Session of the Congregation, and ordered their publication.
This document closes the argument about the heterodoxical interpretations of subsistit in by making authoritative a definite interpretation of the phrase. Five questions were posed and answered on the subject:
[*]Did the Second Vatican Council change the Catholic doctrine on the Church?
[*]The Vatican: The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully explained it. This was exactly what John XXIII said at the beginning of the Council. Paul VI affirmed it and commented in the act of promulgating the Constitution Lumen gentium: "There is no better comment to make than to say that this promulgation really changes nothing of the traditional doctrine. What Christ willed, we also will. What was, still is. What the Church has taught down through the centuries, we also teach. In simple terms that which was assumed, is now explicit; that which was uncertain, is now clarified; that which was meditated upon, discussed and sometimes argued over, is now put together in one clear formulation". The Bishops repeatedly expressed and fulfilled this intention.
[*]What is the meaning of the affirmation that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church?
[*]The Vatican: Christ "established here on earth" only one Church and instituted it as a "visible and spiritual community", that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. "This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him". In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.
[*]Why was the expression "subsists in" adopted instead of the simple word "is"?
[*]The Vatican: The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are "numerous elements of sanctification and of truth" which are found outside her structure, but which "as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity". "It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church".
[*]Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term "Church" in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?
[*]The Vatican: The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. "Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all – because of the apostolic succession – the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds", they merit the title of "particular or local Churches", and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches. "It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature". However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches. On the other hand, because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history.
[*]
[*]Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of "Church" with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?
[*]The Vatican: According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called "Churches" in the proper sense.
ContextThe full text of the section that contains this phrase is, in English translation, as follows:
8. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body. This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth". This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity. Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men. Christ Jesus, "though He was by nature God . . . emptied Himself, taking the nature of a slave", and "being rich, became poor" for our sakes. Thus, the Church, although it needs human resources to carry out its mission, is not set up to seek earthly glory, but to proclaim, even by its own example, humility and self-sacrifice. Christ was sent by the Father "to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart", "to seek and to save what was lost". Similarly, the Church encompasses with love all who are afflicted with human suffering and in the poor and afflicted sees the image of its poor and suffering Founder. It does all it can to relieve their need and in them it strives to serve Christ. While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled knew nothing of sin, but came to expiate only the sins of the people, the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal. The Church, "like a stranger in a foreign land, presses forward amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God", announcing the cross and death of the Lord until He comes." By the power of the risen Lord it is given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and its challenges, both within itself and from without, and that it might reveal to the world, faithfully though darkly, the mystery of its Lord until, in the end, it will be manifested in full light.
「這就是基督唯一的教會，我們在信經內所承認的至一、至聖、至公，從宗徒傳下來的教會，我們的救主在復活後交由伯多祿治理的教會(若21:17)，也就是托給伯多祿和其他宗徒去傳揚與管理的教會(瑪28:18-20等)，基督把她立為『真理的柱石和基礎』(弟前3:15)」(《教會憲章》8)。這份對天主教教會至一性的絕對肯定，亦是天主教信仰的要素，無可避免地引起一問題：怎樣處理天主教與其他基督教派的關係。譬如說，如果我們真的如此肯定天主教的確是基督所建立唯一的教會，那麼怎樣在天主教和別的基督教派之間建立起一種非工具性的對話？只為把這些離棧之羊「帶回」羊棧。回答這問題其中一個決定性要點，我們可以在梵二的文件中找到。上面所引述的《教會憲章》第八節，接下去的一段是：「這個在今世按社會形式組織的教會，存在天主教教會內，即由伯多祿的繼承人及與此繼承人共融的主教所管理的教會」。這段話中的那句「存在天主教教會內」，「存在」這兩字的拉丁原文是subsistit in，意思是「居於其中」，「存在」等等。梵二在這句話中用了subsistit in「存在」，而放棄另一個更簡單的字est，即「是」不用，意思非常明顯。梵二以一句「存在天主教教會內」代替「是天主教教會」，讓人知道基督所建的教會圓滿地臨現於天主教教會內。然而，因為聖神亦在教會以外不斷工作，為此，「在教會可見的組織以外，仍有不少聖化及真理的要素存在，它們都是教會本有的恩典，這些恩典把人推向大公的合一」(《教會憲章》8)。如此一來，天主教教會忠於自己的身份，不用放棄自己的地位，仍然可以毫無困難地承認那些與羅馬沒有任何關係的基督教教派，也獲得聖神分施的恩寵和聖德，因此能夠用一種真誠而非工具性的態度和他們交談，帶給他們自己特有的恩典，並認出上主在他們身上所做的工作，為使他們可以和我們一起在祂內成長。
http://218.188.3.99/Archive/periodical/abstract/A017b12.htm
http://books.chinacath.org/files/article/html/0/160/8310.html
论《教会宪章》中的教会学的讲座
约瑟夫·拉辛格枢机
在由喜年中央委员会组织的论梵二的实行国际研讨会上
在梵二大公会议的准备期，以及在会议期间，福林斯（FRINGS）枢机曾经常向我讲一个简单的小插曲，很明显这个插曲给他留下深刻的印象。对于大公会议的议题，教宗若望二十三世并没有确定任何内容，他邀请全球的主教们提出来，因为由普世教会生活的经验中会产生出大公会议应该讨论的主题。
当时德国主教团也在讨论在主教们的会议上要探讨什么主题。不只是在德国，事实上当时在全教会都认为主题应该是教会。由于法德战争，梵一在闭会前就已中断，不能全面的探讨教会学的内容，留下了有关教会学方面孤立的一章。重提以前的主线，为能对于教会有一个全面的观点似乎是梵二大公会议最紧要的任务。
当时的文化氛围也有这种倾向：二次世界大战的结束要求对神学重新有一个深入的反思。自由神学由于过分个人主义而自行陨落了，并兴起了对教会的一个新的敏感度。罗马诺·瓜尔第尼（ROMANO GUARDINI）提出了人们对于教会意识的重新觉醒；福音派主教奥托·第伯留斯（OTTO DIBELIUS）也在酝酿教会的世纪这一说法；另外卡尔·巴特（KARL BARTH）也以改革派传统为基础，称他所提出的信理是“教会信理”（KERCHLICHE DOGMATIK），就是说信理本身就包含教会，没有教会就不存在信理。
这样当时德国主教们的主流都普遍认为主题应该是教会。拉提伯纳（RATISBONA）的老主教布波格（BUCHBERGER），他是《神学及教会》这一丛书的主要领导人——这套丛书共十册，现在已经是第三次再版了——他所得到的尊敬和荣誉要远超出他教区范围的限制，这位主教要求讲话（是克肋尼亚的主教{译者：福林斯}这样对我讲的），说：“亲爱的弟兄们，大公会议首先应该谈论天主，这是最重要的主题”。当时主教们被这些深入的话语震动了。当然大公会议并没有只限于谈论天主，但至少福林斯内里在思考，在不断的问，我们如何能够实行这位老主教所说的。
在我读约翰·梅茨（JOHAN BAPTIST METZ）的讲座内容时，这一段插曲又浮现在我的脑海中，他的讲座是1993年从幕斯特（MUNSTER）大学退休时所做的。这里我想引用这个重要的演讲中的几句特别有意义的话，梅茨说：“影响欧洲基督信仰的危机主要不是教会方面的危机，至少不全部是……这一危机还要更深：事实上，其根本不只是教会现在的处境，而是对天主的危机”，“可以这样概括的说：要宗教，不要天主。同时这个‘不要’不应该理解为那些有形的无神主义的形式。这样的无神主义已经不存在了。事实上现阶段的无神主义可以平静而自然的谈论天主，但并不真正了解天主……”。“但面对对于天主的危机教会也有了免疫能力，今天已经不再象梵一那样谈论天主了，梵二谈论一个由教会所宣讲的天主。对于天主的危机隐藏在对于教会的危机后面。
这些话出自政治神学创始人之口，应该引起我们的注意。首先提醒我们梵二不只是一个有关教会学的大公会议，而特别是在谈论天主，不只是在教会内谈论，而且也是指向世界，这个天主是所有人的天主，他拯救所有的人，所有的人都可以接近他。梅茨说梵二只继承了前一次大公会议一半的内容，这是真的吗？当然从教会学方面看大公会议要提出这样的问题。
这里我愿意立刻提出我的主要观点：梵二愿意很清楚的将教会的话题放在天主的话题之内去看，愿意真正从神学角度提出教会学，但对于大公会议的接受直到现在都忽略了这决定性的一点，而只去看教会学方面的几个提法：孤立的去看几个引人注意的词，没有抓住大公会议教长们的主要意图。
对于梵二最早形成的一部文献〈礼仪宪章〉也是这样。这部宪章最早形成起初是出于实际牧灵方面的考虑，但在梵二整体结构中，这部宪章有他特有的意义：首先是朝拜，所以是天主。这也符合本笃会的会规：“天主的工程不会被超越”（OPERI DEI NIHIL PRAEPONATUR）。
谈论教会的宪章——〈万民之光〉——，是大公会议的第二部文献，应该和第一部文献（译者：这里指《礼仪宪章》）联系起来看。是祈祷，是光荣天主的使命在指引教会。教会学从本质上来讲要与礼仪学保持联系。所以很自然第三部宪章——〈上主之言〉——谈论天主的话，是天主的话聚集教会并不断更新教会。第四部宪章——〈喜乐与希望〉——显示如何在具体的生活中实现天主的光荣，如何将由天主所领受的光带给世界，因为只有这样才真正实现天主的光荣。
事实上，大公会议之后，对于礼仪宪章的理解并没有以朝拜为根本出发点，而只是将〈礼仪宪章〉作为一个手册去查询具体该怎么做。而礼仪的实行人也只是忙着想怎么能使礼仪更能让人参与，所以人们越来越积极的参与礼仪；可是却没有注意是为天主举行礼仪，而不是为我们自己。可是越使礼仪成为我们自己的，就越没有吸引力，因为大家都很清楚的知道这失去了礼仪的本质。
对于〈教会宪章〉中的教会学，留在人们意识中的首先就是几个关键词：天主子民，面对教宗的首席权重新强调主教们的团体性，面对普世教会重新强调地方教会，教会对大公合一以及其他宗教的开放，最后也谈到天主教会的特别地位，信经中所说的至一、至圣、至公、从宗徒传下来的教会“SUBSISTIT IN ECCLESIA CATHOLICA”（“在天主教内实现”。译者：此句出自〈教会宪章〉8号，这里SUBSISTIT是为避免最初起草时所用的EST，意指天主教会并不是排除其他教会团体的教会，这里中文翻译值得商榷）。对于这个著名的提法我放在这里不做翻译，因为对于这一句的解释有很多：有人认为这里表达与教宗一起的天主教会的特别性，也有人认为是在强调承认其他基督教会的教会性，而并没有强调天主教会的特别之处。
在对于大公会议接受的第一阶段，天主子民的观念与主教们的团体性很快就从“子民”这个词的政治角度去理解。解放神学以马克思的人民来理解，认为是反对统治阶级的。人民的主权总算可以广泛的应用在教会内了。
同时这个词也被广泛应用在政治体制领域内，有人将之解释为西方的“民主”，或者是东方的“人民民主”。
对于天主子民这些“用词方面的火焰”（罗芬克）渐渐的熄灭了。一方面，主要是因为这些权力游戏自行陨落了，对于这个词的解释应该是在堂区内去做：另一方面，也是因为一个努力的神学工作坚定的显示出对于这样一个词的政治化实在无法接受。
在经过细致的解经学分析之后，波格（BOCHUM WERNER BERG）强调：“尽管天主子民这个词在圣经上出现的并不多（从这层意义上讲，天主子民这个观念的圣经意义并不是很充足），但还是可以强调几点：天主子民这个词表达和天主的联系以及关系，表达天主和成为天主子民的这个民族之间的系结，所以是一个横向的关系。这个词并不着重表达团体的结构，更不用天主子民来表达团体中有职务的人……从圣经意义上讲，这个表达也并不说用‘我们是天主的子民’来作为反对圣职界的呼声”。
http://www.chinacath.org/article/teo/dogma/jiaohuixue/2008-08-04/2133.html
楼上的文字应该就是30喽的译文吧？那么从ADMIN翻译的这段文字中，我们可以明确一个问题，那就是说到底还是只有圣事性存在的才算基督的教会，而哪些不具备圣事性存在的福音团体，虽然“也獲得聖神分施的恩寵和聖德”或者说其团体内的成员也能得救，但依然不能算基督的教会
ak89 发表于 2012-1-20 15:11 static/image/common/back.gif
楼上的文字应该就是30喽的译文吧？那么从ADMIN翻译的这段文字中，我们可以明确一个问题，那就是说到底还是 ...
没有时间和精力翻译，但从已经有的中文相关解释，基本上可以看懂问题的关键在什么地方。
维基百科里的解释是目前我看到的最全面的解释，期待时间充足的弟兄翻译出来。
tommy 发表于 2012-1-20 13:58 static/image/common/back.gif
自古以来，即使是东西方教会关系最紧张的时候，天主教会从未否认过东正教的牧职和圣体圣事有效。
这与梵二 ...
我的意见是：如果天主教会从来就没有把新教当作教会看待，在用词上就始终应该坚持梵二文献上所厘定的词汇：教会团体，而不能使用一个根据不同人有不同理解的词汇。
这和对“自选自圣”的理解是一个道理。
本帖最后由 ak89 于 2012-1-20 17:21 编辑
教义部那个文件为什么要出台？是因为有新意么？绝对不是！教义部的这个文件通篇论点依然是重复梵二文献原文教义
但是教义部为啥还要多此一举的出一个文件？不就是因为天主教会内部自从大公会议后，内部的人混乱甚至恶意篡改会议原意，把新教也说成是合法的教会
为了纠正这种打着大公会议的旗号，实质确是违反大公会议原意的错误观点，所以教义部才发了这个文件，再次重复和阐明大公会议的观点：改革教派的福音团体不是基督的教会
文件的目的就是为了更正天主教会内“新教也是兄弟教会”论调的泛滥
否则教义部吃饱了撑的，平白无故发布一个没有新意的文件干嘛?
这里的教会定义首先是天主教内的神学立场：教会是圣事性的存在，所以具备有效圣事的东方教会是基督的教会，而不具备有效圣事的改革福音团体不是基督的教会
我们不知道以后这个定义会不会变，但是目前天主教的这个立场没有变，作为天主教教友或神父主教，以天主教的名义表达或介绍讲解天主教“教会观”或立场的时候，必须依从天主教的这个对“教会”的定义立场
本帖最后由 ak89 于 2012-1-20 16:05 编辑
http://bbs.chinacath.org/thread-10882-1-1.html梵二会议的真正意义
请看教宗的这篇驳斥脱离梵二会议原文意思的所谓“梵二精神”的讲话，联系到这个教义部教义解答文件，可以看出其间的关联性和目的性，讲话和教义解答文件正是为了纠正和驳斥把改革福音教派也说成是基督的教会的错误观点
本帖最后由 ak89 于 2012-1-20 17:28 编辑
其实，作为天主教徒，千方百计纠缠什么是教会是不需要的，也是不应该的!但是我从本论坛帖子中嗅到了十六世纪马丁路德和慈运理加尔文以及英王亨利八世改教的火药味！推翻基督教会的圣事性和圣职表记及伯多禄继位首席性的三大特质的必须性，从而就可以推翻罗马天主教存在的必须性，那么这样的话或许爱国会原则的“国教”在中国天主教内的理论依据自然也就顺理成章的实现了！这才是对于“教会”定义之争的核心意义和现实意义！
或许某些教友力争“改革福音团体”也是基督的教会是为了显示天主教的开明立场，但也不排除有些人是为了撕裂天主教合法性以及教会存在必须性！当然也有的人是受误导宣传的不明真相的群众
本帖最后由 zxc123 于 2012-1-20 19:53 编辑
基督的教会仅“存在于”天主教会内。支持这种观点，这种观点也正是梵二的精神，那种散落在教会以外的恩宠与爱德的团体并不是基督团体。在这里，恩宠与爱德并不能与团体并论，也就是说天主的 这个教会团体不能与任何团体并论，也就是世上的任何团体不能与他的团体并论。如果有人想把天主的 这个教会团体与世俗的团体并论，那就是冒用天主的教会“民主化自办化自圣化霸权无理化”，那这种“恩宠与圣事”也就是世人赐给的了，这种“赐给”对灵魂只有百害
也可以这么说、只有天主教会内、才能找到纯正的信仰。
学校有国立的，民办的，补习班之类，还有自习的。但最后要得到承认，都得教育部管。教会的结构也可类比，终究要归到伯多禄这块基础上。要进天堂就必须掌管钥匙的人点头同意，就这么简单的道理。
zengzh888 发表于 2012-1-21 19:20 static/image/common/back.gif
学校有国立的，民办的，补习班之类，还有自习的。但最后要得到承认，都得教育部管。教会的结构也可类比，终 ...
呵呵，按常理应该是这样。可是，我总想说点啥，又不知怎样表达才好。
zengzh888 发表于 2012-1-21 19:20 static/image/common/back.gif
学校有国立的，民办的，补习班之类，还有自习的。但最后要得到承认，都得教育部管。教会的结构也可类比，终 ...
呵呵明白了，进上帝的门必须要掌管钥匙的人点头同意，那么见上帝就和见皇帝一样了，没有太监的同意这道门就是难进。
admin 发表于 2012-1-16 22:58
那你们谁能从教会官方正式文件中给我找出一句：基督的教会就等于天主教会，或者基督的教会就是天主教会。 ...
立伯多禄为教会的磐石
16:18 我再给你说：你是伯多禄(磐石)，在这磐石上，我要建立我的教会，阴间的门决不能战胜她。
16:19 我要将天国的钥匙交给你：凡你在地上所束缚的，在天上也要被束缚；凡你在地上所释放的，在天上也要被释放。」
admin 发表于 2012-1-16 22:58
那你们谁能从教会官方正式文件中给我找出一句：基督的教会就等于天主教会，或者基督的教会就是天主教会。 ...
Pius IX
Quanto Conficiamur Mœrore, 10 August,1863
“Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus”
論確實的教會
教宗庇護九世
頒布《教會之外無救恩》文告重申懲斥邪說
謬論——公元一八六四年十二月八日
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有些公教會內的可憐人，妄想那些生活在錯誤之中，並與公教會的信理、公教會的團結，互相隔離人，（也）能獲得永生「參閱*2917」——這是一個極嚴重的妄想，且與公教會的道理，大相徑庭，我們不能不予以提及而懲斥之。
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我們與你們，全都知道：有些人對我們極神聖的宗教，有著不能克服的“無知”﹔還有些人，恪遵天主刻在眾人心裡的自然律法與規誡，且也准備自己，服從天主，度著正直的生活﹔這兩種人，在天主的光明及其恩寵助佑之下，能夠獲得永生，因為天主既洞幽燭隱，完全透視人靈人心，及其一切思想，一切行為，則祂的無限善良無限慈悲，決不讓那些沒有故意犯罪的人們，遭受永遠的苦刑——（地獄）。
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可是，這也是無人不曉，眾人皆知的公教信條，即：無人在公教會之外而能得救﹔而且，那些固執地，反對公教會的權威、定斷，與公教會的團體，以及救主托予看守葡萄園的，承繼伯多祿位的羅馬教宗，脫離關系，至死執迷不悟者，不能獲得永遠的救援……